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Is Hard Brexit dead?

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by Hayvek, Jun 10, 2017.

  1. FranniesTache

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    I don't think they did say it meant leaving the single market, in fact most of the Leave campaign said we could have a deal like Switzerland where we would be outside the EU but in the single market.
     
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  2. Never Alone

    Never Alone Registered User

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    Indeed, and so there has never been a decision by the people on what Britain's exit from the EU should look like. This government is simply assuming what the 'will of the majority of people who voted in the referendum' actually is and making it up as they go along with regards as to what is legally and politically tenable. It's a thorough sh*tfest that no one should be happy with.

    And others working on both 'campaigns' stated that a vote to leave didn't mean leaving the single market. Some referred to the (overly lazy) 'Norway option' which obviously meant remaining a member of the EEA.

    If, to give a single specific example out of many, you're a fisherman who voted to leave under the assumption - because there was no definitive answer as to what Brexit would look like, and, indeed, no one to provide it - that we'd end up taking the 'Norway option' and thereby exit from the CFP but maintain our membership of the EEA, then yes the subsequent position of the government that we will leave the single market and the customs union will have changed your position.

    Prima facie, there's a significant so-called 'democratic deficit' when comparing the EU institutions to the UK government, for example. It used to be my biggest gripe with the EU, and I took the Benn view. However, I now realise how very ignorant and naive that position was to take.

    The EU institutions have undergone and are undergoing significant reforms to decrease the 'democratic deficit'. The ALDE Party is now the Union's first Europe-wide political party. The Lisbon Treaty bought in a legal requirement for the European Council (and Parliament) to have consideration for the largest group in the directly elected European Parliament when selecting a Commission.

    I criticised much maligned this development and laughed throughout the European 'debates' - yes, I was one of the (disappointingly) very few in the UK to actually know that they took place let alone watched them live (I posted on here about them actually). Yet this is an important development, but one that is held back by the Heads of Government and National Parliaments who, and with some justification, feel that once you have pan-European elections featuring real pan-European parties that their power would be further weakened.

    That's the reason that the European Council refuse to cede any power to the European Commission and prevent the President of the European Commission from being directly elected - and subsequently open to petulant attacks by the likes of Farage.

    Also, though I criticised the lack of willingness to show flexibility during Cameron's renegotiations, the dropping of the 'ever closer union' statement was actually a massive thing for the European Institutions to do. It was a crucial and key legal agreement that underpinned almost all of the treaties.

    I'm increasingly of the opinion that far more is both to be desired and increasingly necessary.
     
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  3. Andy SFC

    Andy SFC Registered User

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    By voting to Leave we voted against both main parties views at their core. Yes both have their sceptical rebels but at heart both wanted to Remain. As we have put them in a situation they don't want and never planed for, I think it will be many a long year before we get another referendum. The voting reform referendum was approx 70% voting with the 2 main parties so they must have felt confident of convincing the electorate to vote with them again.
     
  4. The Doc

    The Doc #freegabrielheinze

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    I feel very similar tbh.

    Though the constant labelling of me being a racist, ignorant, [insert insult here], has a small part of me clinging to my vote. If the vote was again then I would probably vote remain though.

    Not definate but more than likely.
     
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  5. mapperleyred

    mapperleyred Registered User

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    I thought I was a Daily Mail reader. Make your mind up.

    One definition of regressive left:

    'Most importantly, however, the defining characteristic of a regressive leftist is a deep rooted inability to listen to uncomfortable and contrary viewpoints without dishing out accusations of bigotry, racism'

    Remind you of anybody?
     
  6. Adam

    Adam Are you cereal?

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    There was an element of 'F**k you' from some Leavers aimed toward Remainers.

    Not a compelling reason to cast your vote in favour of Leave. But the toxic conversation on the matter pushed a lot of people over the line IMO. And unfortunately few Remainers seem to have learned anything. In fact some have doubled-down and will argue til the cows come home that the REAL reason you voted Leave is because you are this or that.

    This entire outcome could have been avoided if a sensible and calm debate on important issues could take place. Instead dissent on all-manner of issues was ejected from the public forum and shock horror coelsced around fringe nationalist parties and demented populist tabloids. The only places anybody could express a less than glowing view of mass immigration without being shouted down and that's f**king depressing.
     
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  7. Thunder Gunner

    Thunder Gunner Lee-Sang Hyeok

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    If I was ever to describe my problems with Brexit, it would probably be similar to this. It's the overwhelming lack of confidence I have in this government or any British government to handle this in any competent or reasonable way, the warning signs were always there for me. The lack of vision of what a Brexit should look like during the debates, Cameron resigning on the spot, Theresa May's genera election backfiring, I could go on. There is nothing there that I could cling onto to suggest that they would be able to deliver on what will be a major defining point in our current lives. What has actually gone right?

    Also find myself agreeing with @Never Alone a lot tbh, good posts.
     
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  8. Never Alone

    Never Alone Registered User

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    You parroted the Daily Wail's ignorant, moronic bleating. Yes. Does that make you a reader? I'm not sure. You don't seem like someone who has ever read much more than the headline and first paragraph of a Mail/Telegraph/Scum article or opinion piece anyway.

    Try taking a leaf out of Smoggy's book. He's always been one of the better debaters on CA.

    Don't care much for over simplistic definitions.

    Don't flatter yourself. Your views are not 'uncomfortable,' and until recently were not 'contrary' to mine. You're not radical and edgy in any kind of way. You hold a normal, everyday point of view. In fact, I was likely far more anti-EU than you are.

    Yes, the regressive Leftists I've been calling out in multiple threads on here over the last week. They, like you and some other Brexiteers like to act like poor, oppressed, downtrodden people.

    So, are you done crying and whinging about those big evil so-called Remainers like a pathetic little regressive leftist bitch yet?
     
  9. mapperleyred

    mapperleyred Registered User

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    Read that back to yourself.

    It's embarrassing.
     
  10. Never Alone

    Never Alone Registered User

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    I know what I said oh ye of simple-minded traitor allegations. So...

    Stop feeling oppressed yet? Or are there any more displays of your self-persecution complex you'd like to let us all know about? Any further generalisations on millions of people you'd like to make? Or are you done with your pathetic whining?
     
  11. mapperleyred

    mapperleyred Registered User

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    And now your talking to yourself.
     
  12. Never Alone

    Never Alone Registered User

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    *You're.

    Not that Brexiteers are stupid or anything.

    Oh, wait. Is that going to start your crying up again?

    I'm sorry. We'll stop there. We're running out of Kleenex.
     
  13. mapperleyred

    mapperleyred Registered User

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    Thank you.
     
  14. Teflon Don

    Teflon Don Vale Fan

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    Why not go the whole way and allow only students to vote. It's their future you know.

    So are people who pretend that writing on the side of a bus is a legally binding contract.
     
  15. Never Alone

    Never Alone Registered User

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    If we're going to be silly, I'd rather there be a requirement that one must have had a full-time job for over six months before being able to vote. Hey, ho.

    Aye, as I've repeatedly said the concept of having campaign groups in the referendum was ridiculous. It's led to self-interested people making promises they were not in a position to keep (and indeed never thought they'd have to keep). It also led to a situation in which Farage ended up getting blamed for promises made by an official campaign group that he was not a member of.

    However, there's a galaxy sized gulf between a reasonable, but extremely gullible, belief that the pledges and promises made by the official Leave campaign were to be honoured and kept to the absurd stupidity and ignorance behind a theory that voting in pencil was an EU conspiracy to fix the vote.
     
  16. FranniesTache

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    No idea what you're talking about, i mean UKIP doesn't have a problem with racism at all, oh no wait...

    [​IMG]
    alan rusbridger on Twitter
     
  17. mapperleyred

    mapperleyred Registered User

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    Tarring brexit with the same racist brush in order to garner support for the opposing view.

    It's a very fascist thing to do.
     
    #777 mapperleyred, Jan 14, 2018 at 1:14 PM
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018 at 1:23 PM
  18. Never Alone

    Never Alone Registered User

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    Yet no one on FF has done that.

    Ah. The fascist line. How very regressive Left of you.

    Seriously though, can you name an actual fascist group that advocated staying in the European Union? Or at the very least, did not advocate leaving the European Union?
     
  19. mapperleyred

    mapperleyred Registered User

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    Can't really agree or otherwise as I haven't looked through the whole of FF but I'll take your word for it. Some of those pursuing a remain agenda have engaged in it IMO.

    Do you not agree that such tarring / stereotyping is something that fascists would typically engage in?

    No. Like you I'd expect and accept that most fascist groups would lend themselves to movements that want to be outside the EU. Not sure about extreme left wing groups though, who also exhibit 'fascist' tendencies.
     
  20. Jonny Ninja

    Jonny Ninja witty unpredictable talent and natural game

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    I was pretty much on the fence at the time of the referendum. I’d probably vote remain this time for the same reasons as you . The last 2 Tory governments are an absolute fckin shambles and can’t even appease their core vote. If we voted again I think it would swing to remain
     
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