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Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by Hayvek, Jun 10, 2017.
Your missus sounds like a good girl!
this is the bit that many leave voters completely fail to understand even though it is obvious; we voted to leave the EU, and nothing more. That could be anything from a complete break, to access to the single market but outside the EU.
Nowhere on that ballot paper does it mention anything to do with the Single Market, Customs Union etc etc.
It is a clear choice Leave or Remain.
The majority opted for Leave the EU and we knew it meant the EU and all it frilings.
There is no mention of a bit part departure, remaining in the Single Market or Customs Union it was a simple choice Leave (completely) or Remain (completely).
Jonny I find your post a bit patronising towards those that voted Leave (which I know you did also). "this is the bit that many leave voters completely fail to understand even though it is obvious" !!
So we didn't understand Leave or Remain ? I did and everyone I speak to does also.
I think the only thing that is obvious here is the choice was Leave or Remain.
Only one side of the debate has trumped up a brexit 'scale'.
It's black and white, remain or leave.
If you want to call leaving 'hard brexit' then go for it, but that doesn't mean you can suddenly try and sneak in a single market (and free movement of people) agreement and pretend that is what people voted for.
There are so many variables involved in simply the word "leave". Do we leave the single market? What about the free movement of people? What happens to the Irish border? How big is the "divorce bill" going to be?
Brexit is more complicated than just packing up our bags and saying to Jean-Claude Juncker "**** off you dozy old ****". We can't just leave.
People voted to leave and nothing more. People did not vote for the end of free movement of people in the EU, nor did they vote for the end of our involvement in the EU single market.
"Certainly, gentlemen, it ought to be the happiness and glory of a representative to live in the strictest union, the closest correspondence, and the most unreserved communication with his constituents. Their wishes ought to have great weight with him; their opinion, high respect; their business, unremitted attention. It is his duty to sacrifice his repose, his pleasures, his satisfactions, to theirs; and above all, ever, and in all cases, to prefer their interest to his own. But his unbiassed opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you, to any man, or to any set of men living. These he does not derive from your pleasure; no, nor from the law and the constitution. They are a trust from Providence, for the abuse of which he is deeply answerable. Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion." - Edmund Burke
"The first duty of a member of Parliament is to do what he thinks in his faithful and disinterested judgement is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. His second duty is to his constituents, of whom he is the representative but not the delegate. It is only in the third place that his duty to party organization or programme takes rank. All these three loyalties should be observed, but there in no doubt of the order in which they stand under any healthy manifestation of democracy." Sir Winston Churchill, the Britishest Person Ever
That's exactly what i voted for.
Very odd, what about these prominent Brexiters:
But it's not what the people above in the video quoted by Smat voted for!
Yes, as already stated the referendum was silent on what leaving the EU would actually look like. So the obvious question is who appointed you as a representative for everyone who voted to leave the European Union? How on earth do you know any better than anyone else exactly what each individual voted for? You don't. And the only thing that would lead you to conclude otherwise is that you voted to leave. Well, so what?
The fisherman who voted to leave the European Union because he wanted the UK to exit the CFP but who expected the final deal to include us staying in the EEA think your talking bollocks. The woman who voted to leave the European Union as a political project but who wanted to keep the economic benefits of the single market and customs union thinks you're talking bollocks. The increasing number of people who voted to leave but have reconsidered since as a consequence of the absolute shambles that has resulted think your talking bollocks.
You have no more ability to know or right to dictate the reasons as to why any individual voted any which way, regardless of how you personally voted. So stop sprouting the obnoxious pretence that you do.
Rubbish! Cameron and Osbourne told us if vote leave won we would have to leave the single market and customs union they were forceful in that thinking it would stop Brexit,they meantioned that throughout the referendum campaign as did The EU leaders so we knew what would happen if we ignored their warnings.
Despite this, clearly quite a lot of voters who voted leave (i.e 90% of them) wanted to remain in the single market:
Voters want UK to stay in the EU single market but be able to control immigration
Yet many Brexit campaigners dismissed all of that as project fear, insisting that we could and would remain in the single market. Did everyone vote knowing what Cameron and co. said was true, or did they vote believing the leave campaign’s claims that it wasn’t?
Any which way, it’s imposible to suppose that 52% of the population voted for the same reasons, knowing the same things. Debate on the shape of Brexit is entirely reasonable and, I would say, responsible.
No one, I am just clearly pointing out I knew what I was voting for, Leave the EU full stop. Leave the Single Market, Leave the Customs Union etc etc.
Where do I claim that I am speaking for others ? I am not dictating anything. I have shown the ballot paper and where on that does it mention "Single Market" or "Customs Union" ?
We as a country went to the polls in June 2016 and made a big decision. That big decision was Leave the EU.
What is hard to understand Leave means Leave ?
Do you have evidence of these so called people who have changed their mind and would now vote remain ?
And before you quote the Guardian I wouldn't bother or the BBC for that matter both proven EU parasites.
I mean hard evidence, like opinion polls and forecasts (which you remainers love so much) from outside the M25.
You do realize the UK is not just inside the M25, as most MP's think.
Try asking people in the West Midlands, Greater Manchester, North East then we might have a universal opinion instead of just rent boys from London (not tarring you with that brush, just the majority of these opinion polls are conducted in Kensington)
Exactly. We are leaving so let's get the best deal we can or walk away completely (worst case scenario).
Let's thrash it out and do best for both.
The EU need us and we need them. Let's sort it out.
Do I atone to people like that ?
I am a 43 year old male so I have my own opinion on things, I am too long in the tooth to listen to upstarts like them.
Do you honestly think Farage is my hero or something ?
I hate the bloke. He has served a purpose, same as UKIP, we are leaving the EU.
I put him in the group alongside Alister Campbell, Tony Blair, Gina Miller, Michael Hestletine and my personal favourite Anna Sourby asin I don't understand why the MSM keep giving them air time.
How many "variables" of Leave are there ?
Go on I am intrigued.
There was a simple choice on that ballot paper, unless you had a different one to me, Leave or Remain .
What is variable about that simple question ?
Do you want to remain in the EU ?
Do you want to Leave the EU ?
Don't see no variables, just a simple question !
Is a simple question to hard ?
Been reading the Guardian and the BBC lately ?
It has nothing to do with what you think of those people tbh. You said:
But this is complete revisionism. The shape of British Exit was barely discussed during the referendum. Even Leave campaigners who are now demanding we do leave the Single Market etc were saying we wouldn't do that. Now suddenly everything was clear all along? No.
The referendum was a disastrous botch because it asked a yes/no question to which there wasn't a yes/no answer, and its architects should go down in infamy. You're suggesting the majority Leave voters understood every aspect of our relationship with the EU and were perfectly united in their vision of what British Exit meant - but the actual cabinet still haven't made up their mind, so how am I supposed to believe that? It's nonsense.
Apart from anything else, the British Exit you're after would mean a hard border in Ireland, which is morally indefensible. Give up. Reality is going to win. You're not going to get what you want.
It's not as simple as you make it out to be.
Smat's post above does put it pretty well: "The referendum was a disastrous botch because it asked a yes/no question to which there wasn't a yes/no answer, and its architects should go down in infamy."
No matter what the ballot paper said, it never just leave or remain. The fact there was even a referendum on it in the first place I disagree with, yes there should be democracy in this country but there's a reason why every political decision made in the UK isn't decided by the people.
Nobody knows what leave means now. It could be anything (apart from staying in the EU, obviously).