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Joker

Discussion in 'TV & Film' started by Cicero, Sep 21, 2018.

  1. Bacchus

    Bacchus ストエデ | b a c c h u s w a v e | ンへのパス

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    I thought it was a great film. Not perfect and with some plot holes and inconsistency or but not something could be flippantly dismissed as Taxi Driver for millennials. Phoenix's performance was arguably Oscar worthy although if the Academy members will actually get over their hangups and frustration at the film is another story. What stands out most about Joker is its cutting critique of 21st Century neoliberal capitalism and the society downstream of it. Both Murray Franklin and this version of Thomas Wayne are the two best manifestations of post-2008 neoliberalism and popular culture that Joker targets.

    Wayne, the arrogant, patronising and out-of-touch liberal capitalist who believes he knows best and that the 'jokers' should stay out of the grown-ups job running the city. This while believing he is doing enough because he has a charitable foundation and virtue signals how much he cares about helping about the poor and vulnerable, despite his cold and uncaring treatment of those right under his nose like Fleck and his mother. There's a fascinating comparison of the Thomas Wayne of The Dark Knight and of Joker that reads with the former as how they see themselves and the latter how they actually behave.

    At the same time Franklin, a weird kind of mash-up of various liberal late night comedy show hosts and Jeremy Kyle and his audience represent a culture that consumes exploitative reality TV and other mediums that use the vulnerable for human bear-baiting and cheap entertainment yet jump to their moral high horse when outraged by the actions or words of these subjects.

    I can understand some of the backlash and reasons why this film has provoked such strong reactions and fears but it's hard for such a biting critique to hit the target without being as painfully close to reality as Joker is.
    Perhaps at times it gets too close to reality with Joker's speech on Franklin's show reading like a cut-and-paste from any number of spree shooter/domestic terrorist manifestos. Also his 'you get what you deserve' line looking just a bit too attractive to potential future shooters or domestic terrorists to use themselves. Although I thought he should indiscriminately opened fire on the audience as well as killing Franklin, given they were just as much to blame.
    But unless we take a look at ourselves and our society and do something we are only going to see more real life Arthur Flecks so perhaps it's touch so close to reality is worth it.
    There's a good warning here to the real life people like Wayne or Franklin that if they don't address social problems creating people like Fleck then the chance of them meeting a similar fate with one of them only rises.
    If this film makes people stop and think for a minute it does some good, but then it probably won't given the people it gives the harshest reality check to are the ones largely getting the most outraged about it.
     
    #201 Bacchus, Oct 11, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
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  2. smogtilldeath

    smogtilldeath Registered User

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    Considering how this thread has gone, i think we're actually bringing the thread back with talking about this :laugh: . I agree with you on DC over marvel. Funnily enough, my favorite vigilante in Marvel is the punisher, which goes into DC territory.

    I think a lot of people find this stuff so disturbing is because the darker elements make it more realistic. Many don't like films like this, because it conceivably could happen. Let's be honest, how many terrorist atrocities are committed now and the person attributed with doing it has a severe "mental illness"? How many school shootings do you see in the states, and when they conducted background checks on the perpetrators they find they were people who were bullied all their lives?

    Is this joker beyond the realms of possibility? A man who falls so far down into the depths of despair he loses all sense of reality.

    So many stories begin with the villain having a main aim of trying to "take over the world" or some other vague shit. Whereas in reality, the truly evil people on this planet are the people who are mentally disturbed. Nonces, serial killers, rapists, child killers, animal abusers etc. there is something not right in your head if you're capable of doing vile shit like that. Maybe they started that way, or something went seriously downhill in their lives to make them want to do that.

    There is an old quote i always remember, i can't remember who said it or word for word but implies "nobody is born evil, but something in their lives turned them that way"

    A little perspective on this view. This is the video of a young man who committed a huge killing spree in the states. He posted this on a bodybuilding forum before going through with it. You can tell he's lost all sense of reality when you watch it. Please delete this mods if i shouldn't be posting it (and also apologies).

     
    #202 smogtilldeath, Oct 11, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
  3. Jezza

    Jezza Banned

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    do not watch this if you're sensitive

     
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  4. superyids

    superyids Registered User

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    I have to say the 2 posts I have just read above are probably the best posts (non football) I have ever seen on this site.
    the film makes some great social points. only the thick or the morally decadent would have any problem with the film. or right wings idoits like zippy.

    random point point. his name is Arthur fleck. is that an easter egg for AFFLECK?? I heard there were easter eggs in this film and personally I didn't spot any. is that one?
     
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  5. Delilah

    Delilah Moderator
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    I will be honest, I had zero interest in watching this film until a few weeks ago until I started watching the trailers and it piqued my interest. Saw it last night and loved it. Dark, depressing and funny in places. There were a few moments that had the audience last night where I watched it who laughed at bits. Makes you feel uneasy laughing at it though (well it did me anyway). If Phoenix doesn’t win the Oscar for that then as movie goers we are in for a treat as there is another phenomenal performance by someone else in another film for us to see. Oh, that is the first time in my life I can think that people in the audience applauded at the end of a film as they did last night.
     
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  6. smogtilldeath

    smogtilldeath Registered User

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    are you referring to mine? I'm right wing myself :shrug

    I've just been to see it, was excellent. It's very interesting how they make you feel there's a grey area when it comes to who was right and who was wrong in all of this. The batman films portrayed the Waynes in a certain way, but when you saw it through a poor gotham resident the different perspective is very interesting. It's kind of scary that in parts you wanted to root for the Joker.

    Joker must be in his 50s though when bruce becomes batman.
     
    #206 smogtilldeath, Oct 13, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
  7. Cicero

    Cicero Born is the King

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    @superyids My sentiments exactly. Which is why I find it difficult to take anything bar the Dark Knight trilogy and Joker as great films in the Super Hero Universe.

    It has nothing to do with the DC Universe (thankfully), so either it was coincidence or the writers were trolling.
     
  8. saint_clark

    saint_clark Up the Saints

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    Fwiw Glitter will get nothing from the music used, and as his sentence runs till 2031 minimum he will die in prison. Every cloud.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
     
  9. Redpelt

    Redpelt Registered User

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    I can only levy one inconsistency at the film and it's in one of the later scenes set in Flecks apartment when all seven stone of him throws around an 18 stone man like hes a veritable ragdoll. I personally found this stretched beyond the point in which belief can be suspended considering the film and directors premise is to set in stone a 'real world’ theme right from the get go, for me it came across as quite bathetic.

    Other than the above I found it refreshing that an American film had removed all the cloying sentiment they usually pour in by the bucket load. It was fresh ,darker than noir and confirmed Phoenix as the finest method actor to grace the 21st century. A genuine cult classic that will stand the test of time and continue to haunt actors attempting to even mimic his artistry.
     
  10. Jezza

    Jezza Banned

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    Dont watch unless you've see the movie

     
  11. The Doc

    The Doc #freegabrielheinze

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    Just seen it.

    A very good film. If you watch it as a DC film then I think it's easy to see some flaws.

    Tried to just watch it as a movie about a man reaching breaking point.

    Top performance from Pheonix, though if I am honest found a couple of the other actors a bit wooden, maybe because of Pheonix performance, I don't know.
     
  12. Flip Duckling

    Flip Duckling Registered User

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    On your last point, I think that tends to be the nature of character pieces. There are no subplots, Phoneix is the mass everything gravitates to. Pretty hard for anyone else to stand out when they have no depth and the focus character of the film puts out a performance like that.
     
  13. Shane

    Shane Registered

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    I'm going to say it. This is the best portrayal of the joker I've seen thus far. A truly harrowing fall into depression and despair from a desperate man at rock bottom, until he finally snaps. Phoenix is brilliant and the whole tone of the film is perfect. It's a psychological thriller about a man morphing into one of the greatest most feared super villains in the DC universe. I really hope the next film lives up to this if they decide to follow up on this arch.

    Phoenix is the best Joker we've seen BUT we only saw a glimpse of him. He needs to follow it up with a strong film where he fully becomes the Joker imo.

    Ledger's joker is loved because he had a bit of humor but at the same time you could see that he was utterly mental. There was a dark side and that's how the Joker should be. Phoenix takes that to the next level and I already feel that there's much more depth to his character already.

    I think the best thing about this film is that people who don't like these super hero/villain films can still watch this and just see it as a film about a man going mad.

    9/10
     
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