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The best ever?

Discussion in 'General Worldwide Football Discussion' started by Fo Shizzle, Jun 22, 2020.

?

Who is the best ever?

  1. Diego Maradona

    5 vote(s)
    15.6%
  2. Pele

    3 vote(s)
    9.4%
  3. Lionel Messi

    18 vote(s)
    56.3%
  4. Cristiano Ronaldo

    1 vote(s)
    3.1%
  5. Zinedine Zidane

    1 vote(s)
    3.1%
  6. Franz Beckenbauer

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Johan Cruyff

    2 vote(s)
    6.3%
  8. Ronaldo

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. Michel Platini

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. Other

    2 vote(s)
    6.3%
  1. Ajjaro

    Ajjaro Registered User

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    you’re probably right that he’s not the goat in his position. He has fantastic moments and highlights though.

    The point is that this is exactly the type of conversation these players deserve. Goat conversations are always about Messi, Ronaldo, maradona..

    It should be a positional status
     
  2. Dirk

    Dirk In dubio pro Raute!

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    It was superb, though, from the Holland team that they lost the final in 74 :D
     
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  3. Eaman

    Eaman Registered User

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    I think you're right and these players do deserve a thread like goat goalkeeper or goat defender because they will never really be considered for the thread of goat players by most people.The reason those great attackers are mostly in the goat conversations is because it is harder to create than destroy. I know alot of full backs especially nowadays are creative but they are not as creative as the attackers and certainly dont score as many goals
     
    #183 Eaman, Jul 25, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020
  4. Glavisted

    Glavisted Registered User

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    I'd bet on a cross between the best by position and the best by generation.

    I've been collecting and ordering information season by season since the 1920's for some time and according to my preliminary data I'd have the following results:

    1920-1929

    Ricardo Zamora

    -- José Nasazzi ----- Renzo De Vecchi

    José L. Andrade ------- Karel Pesek --------- Josep Samitier

    Héctor Scarone ------ Billy Walker -

    Alex Jackson ------- Hughie Gallacher ------- Alan Morton

    1925-1934

    Ricardo Zamora

    -- José Nasazzi ----- Ernie Blenkinsop

    José L. Andrade ------- Luis Monti --------- Walter Nausch

    Giuseppe Meazza ----- Antonín Puc --

    Alex Jackson --------- Dixie Dean -------- Raimundo Orsi

    1930-1939

    Frantisek Plánicka

    -- José Nasazzi ----- Eddie Hapgood

    Josef Kostálek ------ György Sárosi ------- Walter Nausch

    Giuseppe Meazza ----- Oldrich Nejedly --

    Carlos Peucelle ------ Matthias Sindelar ------ Raimundo Orsi

    1935-1944

    Frantisek Plánicka

    -- Domingos da Guia ----- Eddie Hapgood

    ----- Carlos Sosa -------- Michele Andreolo ------- Vlastimil Kopecky

    --- José M. Moreno ------ Antonio Sastre--

    - Roberto Porta -------- György Sárosi -------- Enrique García

    1940-1949

    Sergio Livingstone

    -- José Salomón ----- José Marante

    ----- Carlos Sosa --------- Obdulio Varela ------- Schubert Gambetta

    ----- José M. Moreno ------ Valentino Mazzola --

    Stanley Matthews ------ Adolfo Pedernera -------- Félix Loustau --

    1945-1954

    Walter Zeman

    Johnny Carey ------ Neil Franklin -------- Erik Nilsson

    József Bozsik --------- Ernst Ocwirk

    ----- Zizinho ------------ Ferenc Puskás

    Stanley Matthews ------- Gunnar Nordahl ----------- Tom Finney --

    1950-1959

    Vladimir Beara

    Djalma Santos ------ Billy Wright -------- Nílton Santos

    József Bozsik --------- Ernst Ocwirk

    -------- Didi ------------- Ferenc Puskás

    ---- Julinho ---------- Alfredo Di Stéfano ------- Zoltán Czibor
     
    #184 Glavisted, Jul 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
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  5. Ajjaro

    Ajjaro Registered User

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    This is really interesting,

    I'd like to see your list beyond 1960
     
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  6. SamB_SCFC

    SamB_SCFC FF Old Skool

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    Great to see Stoke's own Stanley Matthews on the list twice. If it wasn't for the war we'd have probably won a title or two in the 40s during what would have been Matthews' peak years. He did great things for Blackpool in the 50s but by then he was quite old. He'd been better when he was younger at Stoke but the war came just as he was at his peak and Stoke were right amongst the top clubs.
     
  7. Glavisted

    Glavisted Registered User

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    1955-1964

    Lev Yashin

    Djalma Santos ------ José Santamaría -------- Nílton Santos

    Dave Mackay -------------- Didi -----

    -------- Alfredo Di Stéfano ---------- Pelé -----------------

    ---- Garrincha ------------ Ferenc Puskás ------- Francisco Gento

    1960-1969

    Lev Yashin

    Jack Charlton ------ Bobby Moore
    - Carlos Alberto ------------------------------------------------ Giacinto Facchetti

    Valery Voronin ----- Bobby Charlton ----- Luis Suárez -

    George Best ------- Eusébio --------- Pelé -------

    1965-1974

    Ladislao Mazurkiewicz

    Elías Figueroa ------ Bobby Moore
    - Carlos Alberto ------------------------------------------------ Giacinto Facchetti
    Franz Beckenbauer

    Pedro Rocha ------- Johan Cruyff
    George Best ---------------------------------------------------- Dragan Dzajic
    Gerd Müller

    1970-1979

    Dino Zoff

    -- Elías Figueroa ----- Franz Beckenbauer
    - Berti Vogts ---------------------------------------------------------- Ruud Krol -

    - Billy Bremner ------- Johan Neeskens

    --- Johan Cruyff ------------ Teófilo Cubillas ---------- Roberto Rivellino

    Gerd Müller
     
  8. Glavisted

    Glavisted Registered User

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    1975-1984

    Ubaldo Fillol

    - Gaetano Scirea ----- Daniel Passarella
    Manfred Kaltz ---------------------------------------------------------- Paul Breitner

    - Marco Tardelli ------- Paulo R. Falcão

    -------- Zico ------------ Michel Platini ------ Diego Maradona

    Karl-Heinz Rummenigge

    1980-1989

    Rinat Dasayev

    Karlheinz Förster ----- Daniel Passarella
    Leandro ------------------------------------------------------------------ Júnior --
    -
    -
    Jean Tigana --------- Lothar Matthäus

    --- Ruud Gullit -------- Michel Platini ------ Diego Maradona

    Marco van Basten

    1985-1994

    Walter Zenga

    Ronald Koeman ----- Franco Baresi
    Giuseppe Bergomi ------------------------------------------------------ Paolo Maldini --

    - Frank Rijkaard ------ Lothar Matthäus

    Michael Laudrup

    ----- Ruud Gullit ---------------------------------------- Roberto Baggio
    Marco van Basten

    1990-1999

    Peter Schmeichel

    -- Jürgen Kohler ----- Matthias Sammer
    Lilian Thuram ------------------------------------------------------ Paolo Maldini

    ------ Mauro Silva ------- Fernando Redondo

    Roberto Baggio ------------------------- Michael Laudrup

    Romário ------------ Ronaldo

    I've not gone further because I just started to analyze the seasons of the 21st century.
     
    #188 Glavisted, Jul 31, 2020 at 2:18 AM
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020 at 8:34 PM
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  9. Casanova85

    Casanova85 Registered User

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    You know your stuff, mate; impressive list of Post WWI-Pre-WC footballers, including the great Samitier.
     
  10. Glavisted

    Glavisted Registered User

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    I must correct the error because it is not Figo and Zidane who should be there (I think both will be represented in the next period, 1995-2004), but Baggio (the player who scored the most points in my system in this period) and Laudrup.

    Both repeating appearances a second time.

    In this last team I also took the power to give added value to the performance peaks of Romário 1993-1994 and Ronaldo 1996-1998 because due to the ups and downs of the first and the short explosion of the second in my flat formula they would not be the first 2 options and would be displaced by consistency by Dennis Bergkamp and Gabriel Batistuta.
     
    #190 Glavisted, Jul 31, 2020 at 8:30 PM
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020 at 8:41 PM
  11. FranniesTache

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    The Pride of the South
    It was going so well but the lack of Le Tissier renders it null and void


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  12. Glavisted

    Glavisted Registered User

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    Samitier played as left wing-half in the early part of the 1920's, although he really reached his peak performance as centre-forward (in the old mold). I repositioned him to be able to include him in the XI as one of the biggest stars of that decade and because there was no other great left wing-half to highlight above him.

    Next on the list was the Scottish Jimmy McMullan.
     
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  13. Casanova85

    Casanova85 Registered User

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    Yes; had there been a WC in 1926, Spain would have reached the final with the sheer power of Zamora/Samitier alone, easily, plus other Barça/Bilbao/Getxo stars of that forgotten decade.
     
  14. Glavisted

    Glavisted Registered User

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    A delight as player, but in a system that gives considerable weight to consistency and a plus to performances at major events Le Tissier is one of several that I think would not be highly favored.

    In my review season by season I placed him once in my top 23 (1994-95) and awarded him honorable mentions in 1989-90, 1990-91 and 1993-94. Not bad for the English competition and playing for Southampton, but a little insufficient to be really a world representative for a decade (from my perspective).

    The English player I scored best of that decade (1990-1999) was Alan Shearer.
     
  15. FranniesTache

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    Nah mush Le Tiss was god. And clearly god isn’t the best in the world. He’s out of this world so better than that


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  16. Glavisted

    Glavisted Registered User

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    The best players in Spain in that/those years in my analysis, apart from Zamora and Samitier, were from Real Unión:

    Francisco Gamborena (Centre-Half)
    Juan Errazquin (Centre-Forward)

    They were also:

    José María Peña (Left Wing-Half, Arenas Club)
    Emilio Sagi-Barba (Left Outside-Forward, Barcelona)
     
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  17. Dirk

    Dirk In dubio pro Raute!

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    Great effort, @Glavisted . Kudos!


    I'm delighted to see HSV Legend Manfred "Manni" Kaltz in this Decade team of yours. I met him several times when we Kids were at HSV training grounds to "spy" at our Heroes. He was always nice to us. Great sportsman in one of the best teams HSV ever had

    Also delighted to see a childhood hero of mine, Gerd Müller, mentioned in another decade team.
    A pity, though, that my other childhood hero, HSV Idol Uwe Seeler, couldn't make it in one of your decade teams. But when I see that sheer amount of world class players available in his era, it's also understandable.
    I really like your choice of decade teams .

    That's the right attitude, Frannie. We all have our "gods" and they're always out of this world.

    edit:

    @FranniesTache re: Le Tissier: When I first heard of Le Tissier, sometimes end of the 80's, I thought he was a Frenchman because of his surname, same with another one from this era, Graeme Le Saux. ;)
     
    #197 Dirk, Jul 31, 2020 at 10:41 PM
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020 at 9:35 AM
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  18. Glavisted

    Glavisted Registered User

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    Seeler must be one of the best players who could not enter one of the teams of the decade featured in my system, but it would be for very little difference. Actually, he's the second highest-scoring striker of the 1955-1964 period, immediately after Puskás (an unorthodox #9 for Real Madrid for those years) and ahead of English Jimmy Greaves.

    He also appeared in my top 6 for the position for the 1960-1969 period, although with a slightly lower score than the previous one and with more competition against Eusébio (originally an inside-forward whom I repositioned as centre-forward for practical terms in a 4-3-3 system), Alberto Spencer, Flórián Albert, Jimmy Greaves and Denis Law.
     
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  19. Casanova85

    Casanova85 Registered User

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    Also, I know I'm a Barça fan, but Kubala should be in your early 45-54 list. Hungary with Kubala in 1954 wouldn't have lost the WC final. And he's the reason why Barça built the Camp Nou (which should be called Ladislao Kubala Stadium).
     
  20. Glavisted

    Glavisted Registered User

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    To be honest, in my system he is not very close achieving it and I think it is correct.

    Firstly, he obtained a higher score for the period 1950-1959 (which basically corresponds to his career with Barcelona) than that of 1945-1954 (from what I have investigated about his beginnings, his first period with Ferencváros, his time in Czechoslovakia and his return to Hungary to play for Vasas SC in the 1940's, it does not seem to have had any outstanding season at a national level.

    Then, he was mainly a centre-forward or right inside-forward (in the old attacking-playmaker or support striker role) and in the 1950-1959 period there are at least 4 that played in those roles that clearly exceed him in my results: Alfredo Di Stéfano, Didi, Raymond Kopa and Sándor Kocsis. He's also slightly outnumbered by Nándor Hidegkuti, a big star of MTK Budapest and key piece of "The Mighty Magyars". Even if I had tried to move him to the left side, he was absolutely blocked by Puskás, but also exceeded in points by Juan Alberto Schiaffino and Nils Liedholm (almost tied with German legend Fritz Walter).

    Why not consider Kubala higher? Because despite his popularity, many don't remember or don't know that his prime was really very short. I can basically only conclude that he had 2 world-class seasons: 1951-52 and 1953-54, no other more in which I could place him in my top 23 of a season. He arrived in Barcelona in 1950, but due to being sanctioned by FIFA he didn't debut with the club until 1951, while he practically did not play the 1952-53 season for contracting tuberculosis. In addition, after 1954 it seems that his influence was decreasing (actually, the young star Luis Suárez displaced him as the main blaugrana star during the second half of the 1950's).

    My extended results by position in this decade (1950-1959):

    Goalkeeper

    1. Vladimir Beara (Yugoslavia)
    2. Lev Yashin (Soviet Union)
    3. Antoni Ramallets (Spain)
    4. Walter Zeman (Austria)
    5. Gyula Grosics (Hungary)

    Right Full-Back

    1. Djalma Santos (Brazil)
    2. Víctor Rodríguez Andrade (Uruguay)
    3. Joan Segarra (Spain)
    4. Juan Francisco Lombardo (Argentina)
    5. Orvar Bergmark (Sweden)

    Centre-Back

    1. Billy Wright (England)
    2. José Santamaría (Uruguay)
    3. Robert Jonquet (France)
    4. Pedro Dellacha (Argentina)
    5. Guillermo Delgado (Peru)

    Left Full-Back

    1. Nílton Santos (Brazil)
    2. Sergio Cervato (Italy)
    3. Roger Byrne (England)
    4. Federico Vairo (Argentina)
    5. Roger Marche (France)

    Right Half-Back

    1. József Bozsik (Hungary)
    2. Néstor Rossi (Argentina)
    3. Gerhard Hanappi (Austria)
    4. Danny Blanchflower (Northern Ireland)
    5. Zlatko Cajkovski (Yugoslavia)

    Left Half-Back

    1. Ernst Ocwirk (Austria)
    2. Igor Netto (Soviet Union)
    3. Duncan Edwards (England)
    4. Armando Segato (Italy)
    5. Antonio Puchades (Spain)

    Right Outside-Forward

    1. Julinho (Brazil)
    2. Cláudio (Brazil)
    3. Garrincha (Brazil)
    4. Omar Corbatta (Argentina)
    5. Estanislao Basora (Spain)

    Right Inside-Forward

    1. Didi (Brazil)
    2. Sándor Kocsis (Hungary)
    3. Zizinho (Brazil)
    4. Giampiero Boniperti (Italy)
    5. Enrique Hormazábal /Faas Wilkes (Chile/Netherlands)

    Centre-Forward

    1. Alfredo Di Stéfano (Argentina)
    2. Raymond Kopa (France)
    3. Gunnar Nordahl (Sweden)
    4. Nándor Hidegkuti (Hungary)
    5. László Kubala (Hungary)

    Left Inside-Forward

    1. Ferenc Puskás (Hungary)
    2. Juan Alberto Schiaffino (Uruguay)
    3. Nils Liedholm (Sweden)
    4. Fritz Walter (Germany)
    5. Omar Sívori/Pelé (Argentina/Brazil)

    Left Outside-Forward

    1. Zoltán Czibor (Hungary)
    2. Tom Finney (England)
    3. Francisco Gento (Spain)
    4. Lennart Skoglund (Sweden)
    5. Bernard Vukas / István Nyers (Yugoslavia/Hungary)
     
    #200 Glavisted, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:11 AM
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020 at 12:14 PM
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