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Discussion in 'History & Literature' started by zippy, Sep 12, 2010.
Unteroffizier - Assault gun (Sturmgeschutz) batterie, Panzergrenadier div Großdeutschland :
One of the wars greatest divisions.
Got this lined up for a build shortly, Fiat Coloniale. I'd love to do the Org. Todt version but hand painting that scheme looks virtually impossible. Ariete it is then !
I used to build a lot of models, but don't have the time now.
Personally, my interest is more WWI than WWII, as many of my family members were killed in WWI, and we hadn't really had time to regroup to head off to WWII! Such is life when all your ancestors are famers, labourers and boatmen. They all sign up and are right at the front of the action!
Anyway, as a little bit of interesting info, my family had a set of 4 brothers, all who signed up to fight in WWI. 3 were killed, and upon the death of the 3rd in 1917, the 4th was in the cavalry, based in France. He was fished out of a parade one day, told he was the only surviving brother, and to bugger off home with an honourable discharge. The War Office didn't need that kind of bad press, and so 1 brother survived the war. It later turned out that many neighbours had written to the War Office, and told them that the surviving son needed to be brought home because this family had already suffered enough.
His brothers were:
Fred Dye - Aged 19
Died - 13/05/1915
Rank - Rifleman
West Yorks Reg, C Coy, 7th Bat
Buried - Aubers, France
Osbourne Dye - Aged 22
Died - 06/06/1915
Rank - Private
Royal Marine Light Infantry, Plymouth Bat
Buried - Helles, Turkey
Harry Dye - Aged 27
Died - 08/11/1917
Rank - Private
Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, 12th Bat
Buried - Sint Jan, Belgium
Sad story mate.
L6/40 light tank. LXVII Battalion Bersaglieri, Russia, Stalingrad front 1942 :
Picked some interesting stuff up yesterday, could almost start my own branch of the party :
A better photo of the Panzer jacket now with basic insignia attached :
Level with us Zip, is this your living room?
Zippy have you ever played Bolt Action? If not you might enjoy it. A tabletop game where you build models and use them to pitch skirmishes aginst an opponent. It's all based on WWII.
I'll check it out. I used to wargame with models but generally it's boardgames these days.
Macchi C 202 Folgore and Flakpanzer 1 :
My uncle, Stan Morey DFC was in DV221 and his death has long been something of a mystery in my family.
These days with the internet I have found out a lot and discovered this site and your very deep knowledge of those times, including a trip to the Mahlerten.
It took a year after the crash for the powers that be to decide he had actually died, and ended the hope that he would somehow appear alive.
To the dismay of my family (who never talked about it), as a young boy I had a fascination with Stan, Lancasters and Spitfires, and it persists to the present time, as I am an engineer and appreciate the machinery as well as the bravery on both sides.
Now I know where it happened (and it looks so peaceful in google maps) I would like to stand on the spot for a while.
Prior to discovering this site, I had found that they were shot down by flack OR a German Ace, as you have, and the crew was initially buried at Mahlerten.
What I want to know is the circumstance of the crash and having been there you may have found some of the answers.
For instance, did they come down in flames, was it a shallow dive and bouncing along, or was it a steep nose dive and total decimation ?
Were they all killed in the crash or linger ?
Also, the exact reasons (it's only mentioned generally that he was cool under pressure) they awarded Stan the DFC a month before the crash
I just need to put all the wondering to bed.
Feel free to fill in the gaps if you can and would like too.
Hello John, just seen your post, been on the red wine (Friday night !), I will get back to you tomorrow, all the best, zippy.
DV221 was shot down by Hauptmann Friedrich Karl Müller of Stab (Staff flight) JG 300 flying a Messerschmitt Bf 109 G6/AS (see colour profile of his aircraft below), it was his 14th kill. Below is Müller's wikipedia entry. The Lancaster crashed at 23:09.
As all the crew were killed it is likely that it either exploded when hit or it went into a violent spin, trapping the crew in the aircraft.
In "Bomber Command losses 1943" Bill Chorley does not mention any of them dying later of wounds, it seems they all perished in the crash, when possible I will travel to Mahlerten and have another look, some of the older locals may remember the crash, it may be possible to identify the actual crash site. The crew were originally buried on 29th September in Mahlerten churchyard, after the war they were reburied in Hannover war cemetery. Regarding the award of the DFM, Chorley states that details were posted in the London Gazette on 12th March 1943 (Edit the London Gazette entry in fact refers to Sgt Aston). As you are a family member I would suggest you try and access his RAF/RAAF service record which should explain when and why he won the award.
You may already have the grave photos but I've added them in case :
He first received flying training in 1934 and joined the German airline Deutsche Lufthansa. At the beginning of World War ΙΙ, Müller was posted to Kampfgruppe zur besonderen Verwendung 172 (KGr.z.b.V. 172—Fighting Group for Special Use) as a transport pilot flying the Junkers Ju 52. He was promoted to Feldwebel and assigned to 5. Staffel (5th squadron) of KG z.b.V. 172. After participating in the Invasion of Poland, in February 1940, Müller became an instructor at Blindflugschule 4 and promoted to Leutnant. He served with Blindflugschule 7 from September until December 1942, when he moved to I. Gruppe (1st group) of Kampfgeschwader 50 (KG 50—50th Bomber Wing) as Technical Officer, the unit being equipped with the new Heinkel He 177 heavy bomber.
A map of part of the Kammhuber Line. The 'belt' and night fighter 'boxes' are shown.
Following the 1939 aerial Battle of the Heligoland Bight, bombing missions by the Royal Air Force (RAF) shifted to the cover of darkness, initiating the Defence of the Reich campaign. By mid-1940, Generalmajor (Brigadier General) Josef Kammhuber had established a night air defense system dubbed the Kammhuber Line. It consisted of a series of control sectors equipped with radars and searchlights and an associated night fighter. Each sector, named a Himmelbett (canopy bed), would direct the night fighter into visual range with target bombers. In 1941, the Luftwaffe started equipping night fighters with airborne radar such as the Lichtenstein radar. This airborne radar did not come into general use until early 1942.
In summer 1943, Müller joined Hajo Herrmann as part of the latter's experimental Wilde Sau single-engine night fighting unit Stab/Versuchskommando Herrmann. Herrmann considered Müller an ideal candidate for the role because of his blind flying instructing experience.
On the night of 3/4 July, Müller recorded his first Wilde Sau victory, a Halifax near Cologne. On the night of 22 October, Müller's fighter suffered engine failure, and he was slightly injured after baling out. In mid August Müller was appointed Technical Officer of Jagdgeschwader 300 (JG 300—300th Fighter Wing).
He claimed two victories on 11 August 1943, both Halifax bombers near Heidelberg. Two Lancasters was claimed near Swinemünde on 17 August 1943 and two Stirlings were claimed downed over Berlin on 24 August 1943. Müller then claimed a Lancaster SE of Munich on 7 September 1943. On the night of 8/9 October 1943 Müller claimed a Halifax northwest of Hannover. This was probably Halifax V LK900 "ZL-D" of No. 427 Squadron RCAF (piloted by Sgt FJ Kelly, the crew were all killed.)
By November 1943, Müller was Staffelkapitän of 1./JG 300 and had 19 night victories to his credit. In January 1944, Müller was appointed Gruppenkommandeur of 1./Nachtjagdgruppe 10 (NJGr 10) and was charged with evaluating all aspects of technical and tactical experimentation concerning single-engined night fighting, especially countering operations by the RAF's Mosquito fast bomber. Hauptmann Müller was awarded the Ritterkreuz on 27 July 1944 for 23 victories.
He then became commander of I./Nachtjagdgeschwader 11 (NJG 11) on 25 August 1944. Müller continued to fly against the RAF night bomber streams, allegedly sometimes flying a personal Bf 109G-14 uniquely fitted with an oblique-mounted MG 151/20 cannon in a Schräge Musik installation behind the cockpit, although has yet to be verified. Müller claimed a Mosquito near Eindhoven on 23 August 1944 and a Lancaster over Frankfurt on 12 September 1944. The Mosquito was Mark B-XX, KB242 of No. 608 Squadron RAF, based at Downham Market. Flown by Flt Lt SD Webb RCAF and navigator F/O John Campbell RAFVR, the badly damaged Mosquito crash landed at RAF Woodbridge at 01:10 hours. The crew escaped unhurt. A double victory was claimed over Lancasters on 4 December 1944.
By late 1944 and into 1945, Müller flew numerous nocturnal ground attack missions against Allied railway targets and supply columns. His last known victories were both on 21 February 1945.Towards the end of the war, I./NJG 11 received a few Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighters to experiment with in night interceptions. Müller died on 2 November 1987. Müller was one of the leading single-seat night fighter aces with 30 night victories (and three unconfirmed) claimed in 52 missions.
As stated in the edit the LG article refers in fact to Sgt Aston.