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Discussion in 'Norwich City' started by NcfcDin, Dec 4, 2013.
In, Out, or on the fence?
Right now, out. I just don't want him to go and someone else comes in and its no better. It's a gamble, but things HAVE to change. Another 5 goals conceded tonight. It's getting embarrassing.
Out. However, the board need to be clear on who they want to appoint.
How much longer is Hughton going to get to keep his job by jumping from game to game hoping for a result that saves him for another week? Thats whats happening now.
As long as the board allow him to I guess. It was a dreadful result today agianst Liverpool, but similar to the Arsenal game where we got a drubbing - we didn't do that badly, both scorelines very harsh. Liverpool had 3 SOT in the first half, 1 from 35 yards, another from outside the area and ended up with 3 goals. It was probably Suarez's best performance in a Liverpool shirt, possibly in his entire career. I am sick of the sight of him, I was hoping we would get Liverpool in the first 8 games when he was banned. In 5 games he has scored 3 hat-tricks against us.
I can't understand why Elmander was in for Hooper? Elmander has not scored in the PL at all yet and I thought our best chance would be on the break with Redmond or maybe Hoolahan playing a through ball.
Elmader is technically quite good, but doesn't have the pace and he isn't the type of player to hold the ball up either. At least with Hooper he would give us some pace.
None of our strikers are the type who can play alone up front and hold it up.
Hughton sold Holt and didn't sign Kamara, utterly bizarre considering he refuses to do anything but play 1 up front.
We have played 26 away games under Hughton in the PL and lost 18 of them. I think we have only won 3. We have conceded the joint most goals in the league and are only 1 goal better GD than Palace.
I don't think the signings are bad - actually very good but for me he is not playing to their strengths at all.
I find it impossible to believe the players are happy playing the way Hughton tells them to getting hammered and outplayed by anyone top half.
I've backed Hughton for as long as i can, but things desperately need to change. The business he done in the summer was cracking, we have a better squad than last year and i think on paper are not a bottom 3 team, but we are currently playing like one. If we don't win 2 of the next 3 games then he needs to go, no question in my opinion. Whilst we don't play bad every game, there just doesn't seem to be a plan. If we concede first, then the majority of the time, its game over, if we score, we then sit back and again the majority of the time, concede.
I just feel Hughton doesn't know what he wants this team to do, and that feeling is getting into the players too. Last night, i wasn't expecting a result, i doubt many of us were, but even still i can't help but feel frustrated. 5-1 Liverpool, 7-0 Man City, Man United 4-0, Arsenal 4-1. Now yes, they are all top teams but really, 20 goals conceded in 4 games, that is just nowhere near acceptable.
For what feels like the umpteenth time already this season, I'll give him the next game to win or he can go. However, I expect us to lose and Hughton to be sacked on Monday.
Anyone changed their mind since last posting in this thread?
I was out at the time of posting and, after today, i still am. Maybe we didn't play too badly today and I really didn't expect to win, but its another lack of confidence game where the £13m strike force aren't scoring goals. Goals to win matches and get points on the board.
Sunderland won today and West Ham won today. Palace, West Brom lost but we are slowly being dragged down.
It's a gamble I know and I really can't come up with a name to replace Hughton, but this can't go on. i cant see us progressing and the confidence coming back in the players. I fear we will find ourselves in the championship next season.
If you look at our results since the WBA game:
W WBA 2-0 (A)
D Swansea 1-1 (H)
D Sunderland 0-0 (A)
L Fulham 1-2 (H)
L Manchester Utd 0-1 (H)
D Palace 0-0 (A)
L Everton 0-2 (A)
If you take out the Fulham game, they're not a bad set of results. We would've only lost to 2 teams in the top 7. And draws/wins against everybody else. Yes not winning in 6 games is poor, but if you look at that run of results there's only really 1 bad result.
I personally would keep him here. Say we sack him today, we could be without a manager for the whole of the transfer window, which we really don't want. Hughton has proved that he's very good at signing players, if he signs a couple of class players for a small amount of money, that might lift us into mid-table easy.
Also, he's had a lot injury problems. If you think about it, we haven't been able to put our best 11 all season. Now we have Howson, Tettey, Pilkington, Bennett and Turner all out as well.
You have much more confidence than I do
We should've beaten a poor Fulham and an average Man Utd. I can't remember the last time I thought we would win a game.
Most on canary call are Hughton out, but a few are pro Hughton.
I have to say that is really sugar-coating what has been an awfully profligate last few weeks. Today aside (and arguably United although other teams don't seem to have struggled against them), we shouldn't really have lost any of those and I do remember saying after the West Brom win that we had a favourable 5 fixtures ahead of us where we should really look to kick on and pull away from the drop. We've since not managed a win, taken 3 points from 6 games and currently sit on less than a point a game. Factor in the cup match and it's 7 without a win from a favourable set of fixtures.
However, it's not the results that bug me so much as our style of play. It's soporific, it's anodyne, it's unadventurous and quite frankly it's making me lose interest during matches. I usually watch Norwich City matches intently but I had little interest in following the stream in the second-half today simply because I knew we wouldn't get back into it. Fulham in the cup was appalling quite frankly, to sit on a draw at home and take it to a replay when we could have gone hell for leather and won - now we have an extra game we don't need and I don't suppose the fans that travel down to Craven Cottage will get their money's worth. We show flashes of good football in games but nowhere near enough and the fact that only 3 times have we scored more than one goal in this Premier League season, not so much worrying as entirely predictable.
I could forgive Hughton last season because it was a desperately tough job taking over from one of our most successful managers of all time and he did what was asked of him and more, even if it wasn't stylish. But he's running out of excuses now. We spent a lot of money on reinforcing the attack and had £13m worth of strikers out there today, yet it doesn't seem to have made any difference - if anything we're worse. I don't buy the injuries line either - all our attacking players bar Bennett have featured fairly prominently this season yet don't seem to make us look any better. Bar Howson for Johnson, you'd have to say that our front 6 probably would have been exactly the same today had everyone been fit.
I'm sure that the players still believe in the manager but Canary Fairy hit the nail on the head in the other thread, there's zero confidence in the players. It's like they're told that we should just aim to compete with teams and no better - I don't think we've outplayed any team this season - and yet we've got very good Premier League players. Why not let them off the leash and see what they can do?
And that brings me to the point that our most technically gifted players, you know the ones who can actually pass the ball and create chances, are the ones who are snubbed most often by Hughton. Most teams in the bottom half of the Prem would give their right arm for Hoolahan yet he seems to start one game in every three for us and Fox was the best player on the park against Fulham yet there was absolutely no question of him getting on the field today. If Hughton's still here we're going to lose these players for tuppence at the end of the season.
To give him his due, he's probably being dictated to from on high that the one thing that mustn't befall Norwich City is the disaster of relegation and we're above the relegation zone so we can say we're achieving that. But we've become the Premier League club I never wanted us to be; existing to avoid relegation, make up the numbers and take the jackpot at the end of the season. And for what cause? To do the same again next year. We put poor teams out in the cups, we readily accept draws away from home against teams below us in the league and we play dour defensive football. Hughton lives in fear of relegation and in shows in the way we play.
I've given Hughton more time than many and there were people on here calling for his head long before I was. We actually looked to have changed early on - the Everton game was a cracker, we put in a decent offensive performance against Southampton and we even showed some guts in defeat against Chelsea and Arsenal. But I've just about had enough now because clearly he's ingrained into playing the way he plays. There's no chance we'll get rid of him right away but I wouldn't mind if we did. Stuff the gamble of the transfer window, even stuff the fact there's not an obvious replacement - let's take a bloody chance, let's do something exciting. In an ideal world we'll take 6 points from Hull and Newcastle, but whatever happens it won't change the way we play, we'll turn up at Cardiff and do what we always do, wait for them to settle into the game, defend for our lives and generally make them look better than what they are.
Clearly I've not totally lost all interest in Norwich or I wouldn't have spend the last 500 hours writing this . But I am struggling to get excited about Norwich and something has to change - I'd much rather that were Hughton than us being relegated.
Cracking write up If i'd put as much effort into my English Language essays as you did into this then I'd be on my way to Oxford university by now
I agree with a lot of what you say to be fair. My summary is very positive rather than looking at it in a negative way, but the only games you would expect to lose were Everton and United. Both of which we did lose, and apart from that there's the embarrassing defeat to Fulham, and then a set of ok results. 5 points from 3 away games, and a draw against a solid Swansea side. You are right, in a run of 7 games like that we should be picking up more than 1 win, which is poor.
At the end of the day though, say rather than lose 2-1 to Fulham we lost 5-4, and rather than draw 0-0 with Sunderland and Palace we drew 3-3 with each, then I guarantee that half the people who ring canary call each week to moan, wouldn't be doing so, even though we'd have exactly the same amount of points and goal difference. The reason that people are getting annoyed, as you said, is because particularly away from home our 'football' is appalling at times. Although we tend to go through good spells in games, even in heavy defeats against Arsenal and Liverpool at some point in the game we weren't playing badly. This just proves that all the foundations are there, we know how to play well but for whatever reason it isn't happening. This may be down to Hughton, but you'd think if he knew his team were capable good attacking football then he would exploit that, no matter what preference's he has about his own personal style. At the end of the day, it's the old entertainment vs result debate. Would we rather watch a boring old 1-0 win, or a entertaining 4-3 loss? Hughton's strategy, particularly at home, is to try and get that boring old 1-0 win and then get a 0-0 draw away from home. The only problem is that at the moment, neither is happening.
The thing is though, the board would've known Chris Hughton's style of play when they hired him. They would've known that he is very defensively orientated, and that the football will not be as open, and free flowing as it was under Lambert. If they weren't prepared to sit through a slow, boring, grudgy 0-0 draw every other week then they wouldn't of hired him in the first place. Which is why we can't really blame Hughton, because that's the way he's always done things, and it got him huge success at Newcastle and Birmingham. You can argue that he is too stubborn and refuses to the way he sets things up. But he has tried. If you look at all the different formations we've played this season. 4-4-1-1, at the start of the season. 4-1-4-1 against Arsenal, 4-3-3 against Chelsea, 4-5-1 againt Stoke, 4-4-2 in various home games and yesterday away from home against Everton. I think he's desperately searching for the right system, but can't find it. And also, he knows how well his defensive strategy worked at previous clubs, so he's always gonna be reluctant to change it.
As you say, last season his brief would've been literally just keep us up, in any way you can and then we'll look to build the season after. He's signed some fantastic players this campaign. Redmond, Fer, Hooper, Olsson, and would've looked to push on this season. Out of the £14m we spent on strikers, £5.5m has been used well on Hooper, who with the exception of yesterday has been a top signing and a great goalscorer. As for RvW, unlike most Norwich fans I have time for him. He wasn't playing badly at the start of the season, considering how poor the service to him was. He had at most 3/4 clear cut chances, which as a striker who is completely service dependent is not ideal at all. He then got injured and has struggled since coming back, probably because we've changed how we play since he was last in the side. If he'd not of got injured then by now we could've found a system that fits him, and he could be scoring freely.
One thing I do disagree with you on, is that the injuries haven't had too big an effect either. There's so many factors to think about. I stated in the other thread, the main thing that was missing today was a cental midfielder that can get forward and link up the midfield and attack. Jonny Howson is the ideal played for that, had he been playing it could've been very different. Also, had Hooper not got injured at the start of the season, and has RvW not got injured a few weeks in, then they could have formed an ideal partnership by now, as they would've had ages to of learnt the way eachother play and adapted to it. We've also had to rely on the same 2 wingers all season, in Snodgrass and particularly 19 year old Nathan Redmond. The fact is that Snoddy has been poor and Redmond inconsistant. Had we had Bennett and Pilkington fit we could've taken one or both of out, and still have a talented side. Yet because of injuries we can't afford to take them out no matter how badly they play, because the only alternatives are defenders or Josh Murphy who's nowhere near good enough yet.
As you say, the players do seem to be low on confidence. But look at the home game against Arsenal last season. We'd started that season woefully, and the players morale must've all had frighteningly low. But one win against Arsenal and we then went on a 10 match unbeaten run in the league. It only takes one win to change the whole mood and attitude of the players.
I do agree with you about Hoolahan. But it's a lose/lose situation for Hughton. If he plays, then Hughton gets slated by the fans for not being attacking enough and playing 2 up front, if we don't play him, then Hughton gets slated for leaving him out. Hoolahan's most effective just behind the striker. The only way you can accommodate Hoolahan and 2 strikers is the diamond. Which was fine when we were in the championship because we could we could have Fox/Crofts in the holding role, and 2 centre midfielders, which often would be Surman and Lansbury. The reason that was so successful was because Lansbury and Surman are 2 centre mid's who can also play on the wing. None of our centre midfielders (Fer, Howson, Johnson, Tettey, Fox) can do that, meaning we would have no width to our play at all and to be honest it would probably be a lot worse than the system we currently play. Plus it would mean leaving out Nathan Redmond, one of our most creative players from this season, and Robert Snodgrass, Anthony Pilkington and Elliott Bennett, 3 of our most creative players from last season, completely. There is of course the wide diamond. But that would mean we could only include 1 of Fer, Howson, Johnson or Tettey. Fer is probably ideal for that role, but when he's not playing well he can be a liability. Plus Howson has been our best player this season, and leaving him out when he's fit doesn't seem to be an option.
As you say, he's probably been told that relegation is an absolute no. And he has that in the back of his mind, and therefore at bare minimal he will make sure it doesn't happen. It's not what we want, but if it's what the board want he can't really argue. I'm not saying that's a fact, because our board are great, but as you say, that is probably being dictated to him. I don't think any supporter wants us to become a club that are just happy to get 17th each year, like Wigan have done in the last few years.
Call me boring, but I wouldn't be happy to get rid of him when there's no obvious replacement. Look at Wolves after they sacked McCarthy. Because what if nothing changes? What if we get a new manager in, and we're still playing the same style, and don't know what our best system is, and we end up occasionally nicking the odd 1-0 win at home, or 0-0 draw away, but we still get thrashed at home by the big teams, and we end up getting relegated. Would you really be happy with the board taking a chance and doing something then? Although the way we've played under Hughton at times this season is dire, I can't see us getting relegated under him, simply because we do have good spells in games, and at home we do tend to nick the odd win here and there. I think it was canary10 suggested an idea of no matter where we finish this season, we get rid of Hughton at the end of the campaign and give a new manager a chance, that way he'll have all pre-season to get to know the players, get to know the best system to play them in, as well as bring in his own players. I personally think that's a great idea, and would more than happily support that. There are a lot of factors that come into that though, like for example, say from about mid-March til the end of the season we go unbeaten and play good attacking football, and end up finishing in a similar position to last season, what would we do then? I don't know why I asked that because it probably won't happen anyway I wouldn't totally opposed to 'stuffing' the transfer window, as we do already have enough quality in the squad already to finish in a comfortable position. My worry is though that all the clubs around us will strengthen and we won't.
Everyone goes on about our last 4 games, and rightfully so as it is terrifying. But the 9 games before that are: West Ham, Spurs, Villa, Stoke, Southampton, Sunderland, Swansea, West Brom, Fulham. Now with the exception of the Spurs game, and possibly Southampton away, you'd say possibly all of those games are winnable. Out of all the teams in the bottom half we have one of the best records against other teams in the bottom half, so if we pick up a few wins in that run, then go into the last few games in good spirits and confident, then we might be able to snatch the point in each game, which would see us safe.
I think everything will work out ok in the end. In the sense that we won't end up going down. But results do need to start picking up, and should we lose against Hull I think Hughton will be gone.
You two have been busy
We thought that about Fulham at home, maybe Sunderland away, and we beat a better Man Utd last season who, I thought, were there for the taking this time around.
I have just about zero confidence in the team at the moment. Heads are down, chances not taken etc etc.
Hughton and the players have come out and said they are united and want to win games. The evidence isn't there, I'm afraid.
Changing a manger is always a gamble. Palace seem to have improved under Pulis, barring yesterday, and Sunderland seem to have improved under Poyet. On the other hand, and its VERY early days, but Cardiff failed to get anything against a very poor West Ham under Solskjaer and West Brom haven't picked up under Mel.
I'm not saying changing a manager is the answer, but surely with the squad we have, we shouldn't be playing as badly as we are and not picking up points?
I don't think people can start going on about the final 4 games yet, we've still got most teams to play 1 more time, just like everyone else so there's plenty of times to pick up points. It only will become an issue if were still in danger going into say April.
I haven't liked Hughton for a long time and have always got the impression he wouldn't be able to get us onto the next level (ala Southampton) or at least keep us well clear of danger, you certainly can't be happy with how were playing and our league position (just 2 clear of safety) given the biggest budget any Norwich manager has ever had? He did a good job last season no doubt about that, and despite a pretty horrid second half of the season deserved to stay, spend more money and try to improve this season. He just simply hasn't improved the team, we had 5 more points this time last season and were 7 clear of danger. It was about the time we went on that crap run, if it happens again then we get relegated surely.
I think were just going to have to stuck with him, it is quite clearly going to be a massive grind untill the end of the season, can't see us suddenly pulling miles clear. I would then make a change in the summer. If we lost to Hull and Newcastle badly then I think its surely got to be it then. I don't think that will happen though, we'll probably draw 0-0 with Hull and maybe beat Newcastle, then get beaten at Cardiff. We'll keep doing the bare minimum IMO, the odd win and a few draws then a run of defeats. I don't think we've ever been in the bottom 3 this season and there's a fair chance it will stay that way till May.
It clearly needs freshening up though, whether that means waiting for another shit defeat to sack him, I'm not so sure. The one really shitty old result that still stands out for me was Fulham. They're a poor side (see 6-0 at Hull and 1-4 at home to then bottom Sunderland) If we'd won that, the table would have made for much better reading and it might have enabled us to have picked up more points in the games that followed. The defeat came at a time when we'd just started a little unbeaten run (3 without defeat!!) and had shown signs of turning the corner & turning into that hard to beat side that went 10 unbeaten last season. I'm not saying we'd have done that again but you never know, the manner of that Fulham defeat really got the fans on his back again.
I think the main problem is that we've got rid of the clappers. We won 2 out of the 3 games we played with them in the team
It's a fair point. But on the other hand, there's games like West Brom away, and Stoke away that we probably weren't overly confident about winning. And against United last season, we were in the middle of an unbeaten run, where confidence would've been at an all time high, whereas this time we were coming off the back of a defeat. I don't think you can say that United were there for the taking. We had chances and were unlucky on a couple of occasions. And one thing you know about United is that they're jammy bastards and always have the ability to nick a lucky goal.
As I said before, look at the Arsenal home game last season, the players were all low on confidence, we hadn't won yet that season, and against one of the best teams in the league we managed to pull out a fantastic performance, and from that our confidence just grew and we went on an unbeaten run.
There's no doubt we should be doing better with the money we spent and the players we have, and like you I don't really go into games expecting to win, no matter who it's against. But I would be worried that if we changed manager that nothing changed and we ended up going down. Although we've been poor recently, I do think we'll stay up under Hughton, as we do put in the occasional good performance and get the win.
I do get that impression as well. That whilst he is around we won't ever do something similar to Southampton and mold ourselves into a top 10 side for example. As I said before I think it is a good idea to no matter where we finish this season (unless we finish in Europe or something, but I can't see that happening), that we get rid of him at the end of the season and then give a new manager the whole of pre-season to change things. And at the end of the day final league position is the main thing, look at last season. We were in a similar position to where we are now for pretty much the whole of the second half of the season, yet in the end we finished 11th, which every Norwich fan would've been happy with.
Don't have time to leave a long old post but I'll let tonight's performance do the talking for me.
Out Out Out.
It was poor tonight. With the exception of the performance's of Snoddy and Fox (and possibly Murphy) there's not too many positives we can take from that. To be honest though, I think it would be harsh to sack him after an FA Cup game, where he rested the majority of the normal starting 11. Lose to Hull at the weekend and it's another story.
That was absolute rubbish and a complete embarrassment. Fulham looked like superstars. Diabolical doesn't even come close. Hughton looked clueless and surely its time for a change. We may well win Saturday, but it changes nothing I fear.
OUT OUT OUT!
I couldn't watch the second half, we are just awful. We NEVER look like scoring, there's no urgency, no creativity just nothing positive at all. We have no direction, we can't score, we can't defend. I don't even care who we get in right now, just get him out, there's only one way we are going at the moment and that is relegation. Yeah you can say that the whole of the bottom half of the table is in the same boat, but we just don't look at all like we will win a game, sorry score a goal, let alone win a game!
It's become boring watching us knowing we probably won't offer much in the form of attack and that every time the ball is in our half you're expecting to concede. RUBBISH!
McNally has come out this evening and backed Hughton, saying he is meeting all the board's targets. This is exactly what McNally said: