One of the most violent countries in the world. New President comes in and incarcerates about 650,000 known criminals. Crime goes down. His popularity increases. I am sure not everyone would agree with this type of policing especially in the West where human rights are prioritized. I stay near Mumbai and in the 80's & 90's Mumbai was a hotbed for criminals. Rich & prominent people would receive extortion calls. If you pay you live or you would be assassinated. Dozens of people were gunned down. Gang war was rampant. There would be shootouts between gangs on a daily basis. Bodies on the streets were not uncommon. The police would catch some criminals and incarcerate them. Couple of months later they would be out on bail and continue their life of crime. Mumbai was a proper shithole. One fine day the government said, **** this shit. The police were given a free reign. The police would arrest criminals, take them to a secluded location and shoot them and claim self defense. Hundreds of criminals were eliminated. The rest started shitting their pants. Now Mumbai is one of the safest cities in India. Personally I am all for what Nayib Bukele is doing.
Law and order works, shocker. Our corrupt elite hate him because he proves that decline is a choice and the current sorry state of the west is their direct responsibility.
I’ve no issue with criminals being locked up, as long as they have been found guilty of a crime. I most certainly don’t condone giving the police, or anyone else the power to kill suspected criminals.
I am personally a fan of due process when it comes to imposing the law as I do not want to live in a police state as it's a recipe for authoritarianism and despite being your resident lefty, I'm not a fan of government overreach either (which somehow seems fine for our friendly neighborhood, freedom loving, big government hating libertarians and right wingers -- we get it you have daddy issues). However, I get that the situation in El Salvador was dire and desperate times needed desperate measures, which is what Buckle has brought. An overwhelming majority of the country chose him to run the country twice, so if that's the will of their people, then so be it. Regardless of my or international opinion, he has certainly seemed (at least from the reports I've read) to have delivered a significant and tangible improvement to the country (when it comes to crime and homicide rates) and the citizens seem mostly happy about it, so since they've chosen to have their country operate that way (in what for the most part seemed like a fair election), then they should be able to live with that.
I'm not convinced. I reckon if a national referendum were held here in the UK on the death penalty a clear majority would vote for it, but that doesn't make it either right or desirable.
I'm not saying it's right from a moral or ethical perspective, and watchdog groups both locally and internationally shouldn't keep their eyes away from what's happening, but I believe that citizens of a country have the right to self-determination, and this is what they selected. I also believe in checks and balances. The real problem I have with him is that his authoritarian tendencies are showing when it comes to clamping down on the press or opposition voices. So he can easily use the initial goodwill he's gained from people to serve himself in the future unchecked.
In what way? There are probably lots of existing laws in the UK I accept whilst not feeling they are either right or desirable, doesn't make me some kind of anti-democracy anarchist.
Fair enough I suppose, I just don’t like the way you throw around the “state murder” line. I don’t know a lot about what’s happening in the afore mentioned countries and I don’t particularly like the idea of there being no checks and balances to the power the police and state have, but I don’t live there and I’m pretty sure if I did it wouldn’t bother me and I’d be as much in favour of it as the people of these countries.
I see, so this isn't 'state murder' then? 'Criminals' being executed by the state without trial or conviction? "The police would arrest criminals, take them to a secluded location and shoot them and claim self defense"
Again I’ve already said I don’t like the idea of there being no checks and balances and if the same was to happen here I certainly wouldn’t approve. But what you seem to forget or overlook given that you mentioned trails and convictions is that a lot these countries haven’t got a judicial system that can handle the problem. Judges, police, witnesses and even the juries would be basically signing their own death warrants such is the reach and power of these criminals and gangs.
What's that got to do with you not liking "the way you throw around the “state murder” line"? It's murder, that's a fact, it's allegedly being committed by representatives of the state, so it's state murder is it not?
I'm against it in the majority of cases. But I think in occasional circumstances when law and order in a country is completely out of control and there's no realistic way of bringing the country back under control without an iron fist physically smashing down on the out of control lawless factions then it can be justified. This seems to be one of those cases where it appears to have been a necessary evil. The only caveat to it is that it should always be with the aim of gradually transitioning to a proper system of law, order and justice and not just a permanent police state. If remains to be seen what the long term game is in El Salvador and whether it can gradually move away from this tough policy if and when the gangs are crushed and brought under control.
This. I have seen the nineties here in Mumbai. Even as a kid you could tell. Mafia ruled here, & worse it attracted jobless & impressonable youngsters. While it was far from being as bad as El Salvador, but it was on that track. While the head dons lived a safe life in Pakistan or Dubai, they directed operations here, & their local deputies found ways around the law - through corrupt lawyers, cops, politicians, etc. Obviously you have to aim for a Society which respects & follows rule of law, but, & at the risk of sounding unpleasant, you need a good cleanse first. We had that, & it turned Mumbai into one of the safest cities. A similar thing unfolded in the state of Uttar Pradesh up north a while ago, & the results are the same. UP has gone from one of the most dangerous states to a state where gangsters are literally surrending themselves publically, because they are scared of being put down. I understand what has happened in El Salvador & think it's for the best. It will always be a bit hard for Westerners to comprehend that, & I don't mean that as a sly dig. You have progressed earlier than us, & have established robust systems, while the rest have just got there or getting there. Also agree with this. On a side note, if you are interested to find what 90s Mumbai Mafia world was like I would recommend the 1998 film Satya. It deals with 'encounter killings' & how Mafia functioned.
The rub and the risk of the severe measures will always end up with how the leader who put these in place then follows through. When you're the ultimate law enforcer, that's one thing, but then who starts keeping you from abusing power when the leader is judge, jury, and executioner? That's why for me, the hardline measures he's taken to eradicate the violence in the country isn't what I'm concerned about most, but rather him starting to silence journalists and opposition. As someone who came from the Philippines, this was what my parents and grandparents had to go through when Ferdinand Marcos rose to power with immense popularity, then leveraged it years later to enrich himself at the cost of the people who initially supported him. Anyone opposed to him were systematically eliminated. As you've mentioned, I'm trying my best not to view this purely from a western lens, and imagining myself as someone who would be living in El Salvador as a regular person who can't live a regular life because of crime. Someone like Bukele comes in the picture and not only runs on the platform but somehow actually makes my community more peaceful. At that point I think I would be happy with the results. It's tough to try and look out for people like we try to do in the west when you're desperately trying to look out for yourself and your family. It's an incredibly complex situation, and I empathize as well with anyone who had a loved one wrongfully accused and imprisoned without due process, but at the same time, I understand why he's there and is receiving the support he does, regardless of how I feel about it morally, particularly when I have the benefit of watching and casting opinion on it from afar.
I don't agree with it but then again I don't live in that country and have no understanding of the extreme situation. That being said, once murder is acceptable by the government. It really gives them free reign to do what they want. I wouldn't be too surprised in the future if we start to hear of political opponents 'disappear'. Is it on the whim of the police officer if you're a criminal? Do they get to choose who they eliminate? I'm sure the police force are completely incorruptible.
It looks like a larger-scale version of what Duterte has done in the Philippines over the past decade. Difference is, Duterte didn't just empower the police, but encouraged vigilante justice against anyone and everyone who is within the vicinity of the drug trade, so it became a very easy excuse to just take out targeted opponents or innocent people on false charges with no accountability.
