Whole games are not individual moments, so speaking of bias, it's only your own which is showing by trying to take the conversation in a totally different direction in order not to credit this to Ronaldo. The whole danger of Cristiano Ronaldo is that he could be barely in the game and suddenly when it's most needed he pulls a goal out of nowhere When the team needs a goal, needs the main man to stand up right there and then, I don't think any player ever, has done so as consistently as Cristiano Ronaldo, including Lionel Messi. I think it's pretty indisputable actually. Statistics can be worked in favour of anybody if you try hard enough. You're wrong about goals, goals decide games and goals usually equate to greatness for a forward or attack minded player. Not least, important goals. That's the single biggest category in the greatness of that type of player for me, how many big moments they showed up in. You only need to look at even last night (despite being probably at the beginning of his decline), to see how consistently Ronaldo does that.
Yet the fact remains that Ronaldo has never been the man in a UCL final. Which is the biggest game in club football. If we take into account all the finals they have participated in. messi has produced 29 goals and 14 assists in 42 finals. He creates a goal in every final on average Ronaldo has produced 19 goals and 2 assists in 33 finals. It’s great to be the man in the round of 16 or 1/4 finals. But when it comes to the biggest games. Messi is usually better.
Man of the Match awards are subjective opinions of, quite often, an individual. Maybe this is where you're going wrong. Form your own opinions, don't bank on those of others. Despite this, you're factually incorrect anyway, you must have missed the 2017 final. Again though, pointlessly listed statistics, do not prove any point here at all. Particularly when the point of discussion is big moments and the fact is that you are trying to angle it away from this because you realise that you're wrong about it. The quarter finals are a very big stage, if you don't win them you don't reach finals. Again, not that it matters since you're incorrect about Ronaldo in finals anyway. If you went back through their careers and highlight reels of the big moment goals/assists they have each provided you'll realise you're arguing with fact here
I agree. There is a kind of sophistication idea in diminishing Roberto Carlos for being very offensive, but I think it doesn't take into account how effective and dominant he was as an attacking agent. Maybe the best ever in that role for a dizzying proposal. Perhaps that tendency is a reaction to the overvaluation that usually has in the common opinion until the middle of the 2010's. To be honest, for that position I think his partner, Franco Baresi, surpassed him. I agree. I perceive that many consider Cannavaro better due to the 2006 World Cup and Nesta had problems with very untimely injuries for international tournaments. Maybe that's why some people see it that way in memory now, but at the time I think it was very common to consider Nesta superior. I must also say that at the beginning of the 2000's, when Maldini became a permanent centre-back and was paired with Nesta, despite the high level of both, Nesta could be perceived somewhat better (he was in his prime, Maldini not so much anymore, not so much like in the 1990's, though he was still a world-class defender).
Depends who's MOTM awards you're referring to, whoscored as an example is widely regarded as the most accurate as they use over 200 different variables to determine MOTM. In the 2017 UCL final Casemiro edged Ronaldo because he made 7 key game changing tackles and an interception that denied Juve of clear goal scoring opportunities, overall he had more key defensive actions than anyone in the game. On top of that he completed more dribbles than Ronaldo who had none, and scored the goal to break the deadlock and put Real madrid ahead in the 61st minute. Since you're convinced i'm wrong, let's break down the other UCL finals that Ronaldo had with Real Madrid. I'm going out of order her since you tried to make your point for the 2017 final. Let's discuss 2018 Of the 14 Real Madrid players that participated in that game, Ronaldo was rated 14th in terms of performance. He had no goals or assists. He took 3 shots and missed 2. And he lost the ball more than anyone on the field... 15 times. He didn't complete a single dribble the entire game. Let's discuss 2016 In 2016 Ronaldo had a pretty good game, he was the 3rd best on Real Madrid despite the fact that he didn't score or assist. Ramos and Gareth bale were by far the best players on the field that game. What didn't help Ronaldo is that he turned the ball over 12 times and had an uncharacteristically bad first touch throughout the game, losing possession of the ball 7 times due to bad first touch. Gareth Bale assisted Ramos's goal and created more chances and threatening shots during the game than Ronaldo, that's not to say ronaldo didn't threaten, he had 3 shots on target. Bale also completed more dribbles as Ronaldo only completed 1 lateral dribble. Ronaldo attempted 3 crosses but didn't complete any of them. Ramos was officially awarded MOTM however, whoscored and numerous other analysts have ranked Bale as the MOTM. Let's discuss 2014 Overall Ronaldo had a decent game, he was the 3rd highest rated player on the field once again... And once again Ramos is the hero, Real Madrid was down 1-0, Ramos equalized in the last minute of injury/added time. In extra time Bale scored to put real madrid ahead, 7 minutes later Marcelo scored, and in the last minute of the game when real madrid was already 3-1 up, Ronaldo scored a penalty.. But what happened before that contribution? Cristiano did well, he took 9 shots, 3 on target but not too threatening, and he produced 3 key passes. Unfortunately he didn't complete any dribbles. Ramos was on fire in this game, he completed the most passes of any player on the field, he attempted 16 long balls and completed 15 of them, he completed 3 key tackles, 6 interceptions, and scored the goal to keep real madrid in the game at the last minute. I think Ronaldo puts an immense amount of pressure on himself compared to Messi and it gets to him in Finals. Which are the biggest games. Messi's conversion rate is 23.2% when barcelona are already winning. When Barcelona is tied, or losing, his conversion rate fluctuates slightly to 22.4%. In contrast Ronaldo's conversion rate while his team is winning is higher than Messi's at 24.5%, however, when Ronaldo's team is tied or losing, his conversion rate drops drastically to 4.3%. He focuses so much on being THE MAN that he takes tends to take shots from unfavorable positions when the team is at a deadlock or losing. I brought up finals already.. I know, messi has produced twice as many goals and assists as Ronaldo in finals. But what about el classico and games which they played each other.. How did they perform. Messi has produced 20 goals and 11 assists in 30 games against Real Madrid in games that Ronaldo played Ronaldo has produced 18 goals and 1 assists against Barcelona in games that Messi has played. Of these encounters Barcelona won 14 games, Real Madrid won 8 games. But let's add context. They have played each other in 7 knockout phases. Ronaldo and his team have come out on top on 4 of those: Spanish Cup 2010/2011, Spanish Supercup 2011/2012, Spanish Cup semifinals 2012/2013 and Spanish Supercup 2017. Messi and his team came out on top on 3 occasions: Champions League semifinals, Spanish Supercopa 2011 and Copa del Rey Quarterfinals 2011/2012. How did Ronaldo and Messi fare on those occasions? Ronaldo's wins: In 2010/2011 Ronaldo Copa Del Ray scored the winning goal and produced in a big moment. Messi did not score In the 2011/2012 Spanish supercup Messi scored the winning goal in the first leg, Ronaldo also scored. In the second leg both messi and ronaldo scored again. Ronaldo did not score the winning goal. Real madrid won on aggregate. Messi was MOTM for barcelona in the first game. Benzema was MOTM for Real madrid in the second. in 2012/2013 Copa Del Ray Ronaldo did not score in the first leg, he performed poorly, Varane won MOTM. Messi didn't score but was the best player on Barcelona that game. In the second leg Ronaldo score 2 goals, 1 of which was a penalty, and was by far the best player in the game winning the MOTM in the ratings. Spanish Supercup 2016/2017 In the First leg Isco was the top performer for Real madrid, Ronaldo scored a goal however had a pretty terrible game and was not one of the top 3 performers on Real Madrid. Messi scored and was the top performer on barcelona. But not MOTM. In the second leg Ronaldo didn't play, Real Madrid won the game and Messi had a poor game, he did not score. Messi's wins: Champions League semifinals 2010/2011: In the first leg Messi scored 2 goals in a 2-0 win and won MOTM with a 10/10 performance. Ronaldo led the stats of most shots in the game and was Real Madrid's best performer. Messi led the stats in goals, dribbles, key passes and chances created. In the second leg neither Messi or Ronaldo scored, Messi was MOTM, Ronaldo was not one of the top performers on Real madrid. Messi led the game in Dribbles and chances created. Ronaldo led the game in shots. Spanish supercup 2011 Messi was involve all 5 of barcelona's goals in both legs and won MOTM in both games Barcelona won on aggregate 5-4. Messi produced 3 goals over both games. Ronaldo scored in the second leg Copa del ray 2011/2012 Ronaldo scored in both legs, Messi didn't score in either. Carles Puyol was the MOTM in the first leg, Messi was MOTM in the second.
I'm not reading all that mate, because no offence, you're a Messi fanboy and that is your only logic behind claiming he is a greater big moment player than Ronaldo....i.e. none. It isn't a Messi v Ronaldo thread and I don't feel the need to argue anymore, I'm satisfied
No offense mate, but i'm a performance analyst not a fanboy. Data consciousness is something sorely lacking in football as you've demonstrated. If you're not going to read all that, don't draw conclusions.. and that's just the tip of the iceberg. In anycase, you're right that this isn't a messi v Ronaldo thread, but the simple fact is that the average fan doesn't understand much beyond the assist and the goal.
I'm not sure of the relevance of your job title, you may never have kicked a ball in your life. Ok you're a professional with numbers, it shines through, alongside the fact that you're a big Messi fan. Football isn't a numbers game though, numbers are a small part of the measure of a great player. I'm not going to try disqualify your opinion, keep it, my opinion is that you should stick to numbers and make sure they're correct next time. Like I said, I don't feel the need to argue this back and forth with you because I know what I've said is true. Nor do I want a boring back and forth on this overplayed subject anyway. When it comes to a conversation about big moments in big games and you start talking about panel based voting over the course of whole games, then downplay last 16 and QF's of the most major competitions in the game, you don't come out with much credit, whatever your title. No offence. You know nothing of me if you think the assist and the goal is all that I can muster in a footballing conversation. To fail in understanding that a big moment in a game much more often than not will be one of the two, for an attack minded player however, is poor. Someone who relies on data rather than their own understanding of the game is what I'd call the average fan. Your agenda has been clear since you posted false data anyhow. I'm not sure who you think you are, but I don't need to read your agenda driven presentation of pointless statistics in order to draw my conclusions. Can we leave it there?
Interesting... Humour me if you will, what are your thoughts on the following: Our minds typically prioritize 1 major action in memory at the expense of 30 minor yet collectively significant actions that could have prevented the necessity of a major and unlikely action. For example, a player takes 9 decisions to shoot. Finally scoring the 9th shot to win the game. He might be the star in a 2-1 win where he scored the winning goal, right? What if a key pass or assist was more likely to succeed instead on 3 of those occasions that he chose to shoot... it could have lead his team to 2 earlier goals and place them in a position where they do not need a “big moment” to win. These are the type of analysis and memories that fade. And were left with the “big moment”. Do you ever wonder why Messi can win so many MOTM awards in matches that he doesn’t score or assist yet Ronaldo is almost never MOTM when he does not score? This is part of the reason. You probably don’t know this but it’s significant so pay attention. Messi plays a major contributing role in 81% of his team’s goals where he does not score or assist and produces 60% more assists per game over the course of his careers than Ronaldo. In terms of goals he is very similar to Ronaldo, yet he takes 20% fewer shots despite creating more opportunities to shoot because Messi is more likely to pass than shoot when his team mates are in a better position than he is. Many of those Non-goal “moments” he creates are minor in comparison to the goal/moment that they lead to from the standpoint of what we remember, but major in relation to the actual impact on the game. At the end of the day none of this matters in terms of who you like to watch, but I’ll leave you with this. Of the 4 UCL winning campaigns that Ronaldo has participated in with Real Madrid, he has won 9 MOTM in 26 KO games and has never been MOTM in a final. Some of those 9 MOTM games were so impressive that people forget about the actions of his team mates and his actions in the 5 finals and 12 other KO games, which by the way, also matter. Of the 3 UCL winning campaigns that Messi has participated in he has been MOTM in 15 out of 21 KO games and was MOTM in all 3 finals. (Not including the 2006 campaign as he did not play in the final) He’s also the only player in the history of the UCL to win 7 consecutive MOTM from beginning of the KO stages.
Again I find this boring and won't be reading it since I've already stated a few times now that I have no interest in the conversation, nor your way of looking at football. Create another Messi v Ronaldo thread if you wish
To misquote Cloughie, if football was supposed to have been played on spreadsheets they'd have put grass there
lol true, don't underestimate me though I produce graphs and diagrams as well, and those can sometimes have grass on them. There's a good reason why most professional sports clubs hire performance analysts these days, it's just not interesting for the average fan because they're not tasked with providing analysis that can be used to improve their team and players.
Key word being "used".....it's a factor which if used correctly, is undoubtedly helpful, it is not however, the basis of the game
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy watching Ronaldo and I watch alot of his games. That last statement doesn't really relate to anything.
